The crime of being alone and female.

A few weeks ago my sister and I were at a gas station filling up our car. When I got out to pump, a car full of guys pulled up next to us. Immediately, some of the guys rolled down their windows and a couple others got out of their car. Standing there at the pump across the driveway, they began whistling and hollering at me.



My sister rolled her eyes at me from the front seat of the car and went back to texting. I continued on with my business, trying to ignore the obnoxious men. Insert money. Unscrew gas cap. Insert pump.

I noticed one of them walking over to me. In a fit of rage even I didn’t see coming,
I totally lost it.


Shocked silence.



A brave comeback by the driver: “You’re cute when you’re mad!”

I flipped them off and stormed into my car.

The expectation is that women just “take it”. Just shut up and let it happen. And when we fight back, it’s “cute”.

My sister was shocked. A huge smile spread across her face. “I can’t believe you just did that. Do you know how many times I’ve wanted to do that?”

Immediately I worried that I had set a bad example for my sister. What if she allowed her anger get the best of her when she was being harassed? What if it was with the wrong person and they retaliated back? What if she got hurt following my example? Why should she have to worry about that? Is this a legitimate concern? My thoughts raced.

I sped out of the parking lot and down the street. They followed. At the nearest stoplight, they pulled up next to us again, windows down, and began hollering. I considered spitting on them, but decided against it. We were off to dinner with my dad. My sister gushed in admiration over dinner to my dad about what had happened. He looked shocked. I felt uneasy.

This is just one of dozens of experiences I’ve had like this. If you follow my Twitter, I usually vent about it over twitter when it happens to me. Anytime I’m alone, without men, or in a strange area and present any cue that I’m lost, or any time I make eye contact with the wrong stranger….

Fucking frustrating. So. Fucking. Frustrating, peeps.

I’ve had enough, and I’m not taking it anymore. My frustrations will be flowing free the next time some entitled asshole decides to punish me for being alone while female.

158 thoughts on “The crime of being alone and female.

  1. I often have to do the terrible deed of walking to work through a “bad” part of town (like there are any “good” parts of town if you’re a woman alone at night) at 4AM and I always get honked at, hollered at, whistled at…

    They call to me like I’m some sort of stray dog and then act all surprised when I won’t respond. The other day a guy actually said “You might as well just come over here, babe!”

    Or what? I wanted to say. Do you really think you can offer me so much more than what I can already do for myself?

    Ugh. It’s so infuriating, and sometimes even terrifying. We really need a way to fight back.

    • I always thought everyone should take self defense. It’s fun and far more empowering than a gun or anything else in existence. Yeah, I’m a dude and you just have to know how to fight but I thought it would girls good too to be able to unleash a punch to do shnozz if necessary. I mean if you want to miss out on all that goodness, I guess there’s mace.

      • yeah and then there’s the people who can’t afford self defense. who don’t have time to learn it. who believe that violence is never the answer. who know that they have the RIGHT to feel safe and that they shouldn’t have to go out of their way to protect themselves against ignorant douchecanoes who can’t control themselves.

        • I’ve done self-defence since I was 8 and only quit at around ~17 because, well, I was running out of time. Or so I told myself.
          I picked it up again, and left it drift away again, but it doesn’t really matter: What I learned and tried to teach all of my partners where the most basic things: How to fall, how to aim for the squishy parts, how to stand tall – and how to run away.

          Those extra few micro-seconds that your brain doesn’t spend in paralysis when you’re under physical attack or threat can mean a lot. If all you get from the excersise is the confidence to run, screaming, if necessary, then that’s enough.

          On the plus side: Learning to fall really helps you in other, much more common situations.

        • You don’t necessarily have to take costly classes. Find a friend who wants to learn the same things or who is willing to collect a few bruises from you, and check out a book or find a site with good descriptions. You can practice on each other until you can perform the manuevers perfectly. Some of them are very basic – bend fingers back, dig fingernails into the crescent at the base of someone’s nail, pinch the tiny bones in the wrist together, rake the heel of your shoe down a shin etc. Aiming for weak points or performing moves that are painful and easy can help a smaller opponent best a larger one, or give leverage to someone grabbed from behind.

          Men AND women benefit from knowing these techniques. This is not about responding to violence with violence, this is about getting away from anyone who means you harm. You’re not invincible! You may never be grabbed in an alley or mugged on a dark street, but maybe someone gets much too handsy at a party, or a significant other’s friend is way too interested in you. These are worth knowing and will not make you violent – just someone who can defend themselves in the face of danger.

  2. I have had several similar experiences and I get so outraged by them. Recently we have had a group of builders next door who liked to hollar at women walking down the street, even followed them. One night they came back drunk (they were allowed to stay there) and saw me in the window and started whistling and yelling. I lost it at them and screamed “Do you think women are just barn animals you can whistle at and they will come running!!!” It turned into this huge harressment thing and we had to call the police. It was awful, I just don’t understand why, particularly men in very male orientated work places, are allowed to do this. For them it seems to be almost socially acceptable. Imagine if a doctor or a lawyer did it??

  3. Fucking sexist ogers. They are an insult to the male gender AND the human race in general! And it’s these kinds of people that make single men unwelcome in certain naturist clubs. And on top of that, it makes LEGIT men like me who want to make new friends and see how it goes with single females look like we’re one of them.

    I literally do not know what I can say to not have alarm bells ring in a womans head. Seriously, I wish I had a big enough hammer to smash in the heads of those idiots. They piss me off just as much as they do to you it seems!

  4. I’m so sorry that happened to you. People can be seriously shitty. That short of behavior is both highly offensive and frightening. It’s fantastic that you didn’t put up with it. But as you said, it wasn’t the safest thing to do(maybe you should get some peper spray or something). There obviously needs to be a massive change in the way woman are thought of and treated. :\

  5. And this is why my Aunt Julie has a concealed weapons license and I’m going to get one when I turn twenty-one because I’m sorry, if I feel threatened like that, I’m gonna pull a gun on the idiot and get some license plate numbers–of course my mom works for the State and can get something done about it, but I’m not so sure a building full of mostly men in uniform would give a rat’s ass.

    Thank God I’m ugly.

    xoxoShelby E.

    • Hi, great idea to try to keep yourself safe whether you use pepper spray or get your concealed weapons permit. As a woman, I know how scary these situations can be. Just be careful that you know the law for your state. You can’t just pull out a deadly weapon, in most states you have to observe an overt action of deadly force against you or another person in order to have the right to use deadly force. Fear alone is not enough according to most states in the US. Brandishing a deadly weapon can be considered in most states a criminal act and is punishable as the highest misdemeanor available or one of the lower grade felonies. Brandishing can be considered pointing, holding, lifting your shirt showing the person you have a deadly weapon implying you will use it. Normally this law does not apply to pepper spray so that may be a safer route; in most states you can hold the mace in your hand without any problems with the law. Hope this information helps keep some people safe :)

    • Maybe I’m taking your “Thank God I’m ugly” statement too literally when it was meant to be funny, but when it comes down to it, being pretty/cute, etc. doesn’t have anything to do with it. While women that are attractive may seem to get more of this unwanted verbal attention (I wonder if this is documented at all?), these men’s behavior is indicative of a mentality that is dangerous for all women: the assumption that women, attractive or not, invite or appreciate unsolicited sexual behavior. Aren’t we all just (eagerly) waiting for it? The assumption that the behavior (words or actions) is actually welcomed by a woman – whether or not she admits it – reinforces victim blaming. Yes, the hooting and hollering gets annoying, but in the end ugly women get raped too.

  6. Wow, that sounds awful, and judging from this post and the comments this behavior is really common. That’s chocking to me. I live in Sweden and I’ve never had anything like that happen to me or seen it happen to anyone else, and I used to live in a “bad” neighborhood. I mean, sure, random (usually drunk) guys have started talking to me on the street but they’re usually very easy to get rid off. This is just insane.

    • -.- I misspelled “shocking”… In my defense, “shock” is spelled with a “c” in Swedish, and it’s the middle of the night in this part of the world. Try spelling perfectly in a foreign language when you’re half asleep, it’s not as easy as it sounds. ;)

    • I’m a US citizen who lived/worked in Iceland for a while and I noticed the same “phenomenon” – I was free to walk the streets safely at any time of night. While I did have one fellow chat me up outside of a bar as I was leaving (alone) after having been out with some friends, he was not pushy, crude, unkind, etc. Merely friendly and didn’t take it poorly when I expressed disinterest. Aside from that, no one ever bothered me when I was by myself in any way. Men in Iceland seemed to understand that, hey, maybe women don’t *like* being cornered by themselves by packs of men. Crazy! :p

  7. I’ve only noticed this a few times like in a club or just on a general location were people sit, as I have quite big ears :( sound “Voices” are easilty picked up and I’ve heard the attempts some guys make at trying to “hit” on girls…. seems annoying & (mainly incoherent).

  8. It may be because I’m tall (nearly 6′ without heels), it may be because I’m large (size 18 by most standards), or maybe I just look scary, but when a bunch of guys that treat me that way I stare them down and let them know they are not equipped to handle the likes of me. With a smile and an eyeroll. Usually they leave me alone after that. Though, in groups they tend to be more brave. And I’m less brave if I’m alone, I carry pepper spray for those instances…

  9. I would apologize for my half/portion of the species but it would not change the fact that males tend to cover up our insecurities with macho cheese. I imagine the reason why cavemen used to club women over the head is because they got frustrated with not knowing how to actually strike up an intelligent conversation with a women.

  10. It is times like these when I am glad that me and most of my male friends are not complete tools when it comes to talking with woman (I know the complete tools however). But I also feel ashamed that those people do exist, you have to wonder how they can think that women like that talk.

    I am proud of you though Laci, standing up to them was possible (to quote an internet term) your Crowning Moment of Awesome. But yes, considering the society we live in, telling certain guys that is not a good idea as there are guys who will take that the wrong way. As people have said, mace is properly a good idea

  11. I’m empathetic enough to realize that your situation was a scary one, yet there is a yin to every yang:

    Women have been pretty good at playing the victim all throughout history. When they could have chosen to embrace their femininity, they demanded “equality”. Like men and women are some how “equals” in their entirety.

    Scary/frustrating events like this are born from decades of suppressed self-expression.

    Women have always known man’s strong desire for fulfilling their sexuality, and for hundreds, if not thousands of years, they have taken advantage of it; using their own sexuality as leverage.

    Being aware of this, men have become less sensitive to the individual woman – especially if she’s a stranger.

    When a man, or group of men, see a new, cute woman, their default mindset is “I’ll make a half-ass effort being full aware that most women think I just want to have sex with her, and if she rejects me I’ll have fun with it (or make her uncomfortable) to compensate for my embarrassment.”

    Women do their best every day to get dressed up and do their make-up the best then can JUST IN CASE their paths cross with the man of their dreams. But the reality of the situation is that ALL men get to see what she’s advertising, and out of all of those men MORE than just the guy she wants is going to be attracted to what he sees.

    Some of these men have enough confidence to “make an attempt” at establishing a connection realising his chances are slim.

    It amazes me how many women scapegoat men this way.

    It wouldn’t go this way if women toned it down a bit – revealing less skin and doing less to accentuate their femininity – and started playing a more active role in mating and re productivity. Instead they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to look as attractive as they can and then they are PASSIVE/seductive, leaving it to ALL MEN to decide amongst themselves which of them should approach or talk to you.

    And then, look out, here comes a guy you don’t want to talk to who is about to talk to you in a way you don’t want to be talked to.

    Boo fucking hoo.

    • As someone who does dress up provocatively I can tell you most girls don’t dress that way “in case they meet the man of their dreams”. They dress that way to impress other women. I have a lot of male friends and every single one of them prefer a girl that takes 5 minutes to brush her hair, throw on some mascara, and walk out the door. The only man I knew that wasn’t that way was my ex, and he turned out to be gay.

    • You know, I like Wikipedia, especially the Simple English pages, so let me translate this in Simple English:

      “Women do their best every day to get dressed up and do their make-up the best then can JUST IN CASE their paths cross with the man of their dreams. But the reality of the situation is that ALL men get to see what she’s advertising, and out of all of those men MORE than just the guy she wants is going to be attracted to what he sees.”

      Not our fault. You’re just too damn hot for us to resist. Now wear a fucking burqa, will ya?

      “Women have always known man’s strong desire for fulfilling their sexuality, and for hundreds, if not thousands of years, they have taken advantage of it; using their own sexuality as leverage.”

      If us men peoples is horny, you lay on your back, okay? That’s the system. Stick to that, and you can the streets savely.

      “Some of these men have enough confidence to “make an attempt” at establishing a connection realising his chances are slim.”

      I holla at them bitches. I’m gangsta, bro.

      And just to make clear that I’m right, feminism sucks, and you have no right to object to shit, I’ll round off my fantastic, highly intellectual, Noam Chomsky-would-be-impressed-with-my-thinking shit by saying Boo fucking hoo. Okay, here goes:

      Boo fucking hoo.

    • With the builders we had next door they harrassed me no matter what I was wearing. I was afraid to walk past them to put out the rubbish. I was afraid to wear shorts where they could see me because it showed my legs. They could see perfectly well I was in a committed relationship as they stared into my windows and whistled at me. AND you are telling me it is MY fault!!! I did nothing…. absolutly nothing to lead these douchebags on, how DARE you suggest it had anything to do with me.

    • All I saw was “Blah blah blah victim blaming blah blah blah I’m a man I know what I’m talking about blah blah blah how do you expect men to act when women tease us blah blah blah broad generalizations blah blah blah.”

      Let me tell you a story.

      At a former employer, I used to wear no makeup, khakis, and a long-sleeved mock neck that was about 2 sizes too big, as to minimize the attention brought to my female anatomy.

      The manager could not keep his inappropriate questions, comments, and touches (yes, touches) to himself.

      Towards ANY of the female employees.

      He was married.

      And I told him, under no uncertain terms, that his questions and comments were inappropriate, that his touches were completely unwelcome (more than once I literally said “Don’t touch me.”), and that his behavior was skeezy.

      It didn’t stop him.

      Nor did the wedding band on his finger.

      Now, please, regale me one more time about how I brought that upon myself, how I’m the one who screwed up.

    • I don’t dress sexy, I am what people call tom boy and I still get harassed like that. Also the fact is I wear NO make-up, spend about ten minutes all in all to get ready so how does that explain their ations then? Its just them treateing women as sex objects. Also theirs the fact that when I tell them I’m only 15 they don’t often leave me alone, doesnt that say something?

      Also why should a woman not be allowed to dress how she wants, its her body she is allowed to use it how she wants. If a woman isnt allowed to look feminine thats just like takeing away her sexuality

    • This is the biggest load of crap I have read.

      Men who catcall and harass women do not do so because of anything any of the women may or may not be wearing. Men catcall because society has taught them that it is their right to objectify women and to “Keep them in their place”

      I can’t leave the house without being catcalled. It has nothing to do with my looks. Makeup, no makeup, hair up, hair down, shorts, jeans, tanks top, t-shirt, oversized sweater or jacket… It doesn’t matter what I wear or how I look. All that matters is that I am a woman out in public and I am alone.

      Your excuses about men being driven by sexuality do nothing but vilify men. If they are incapable of controlling themselves, perhaps they should be the ones that have to lock themselves away for the safety of everyone.

    • Wow, I’m so grateful to have never had the great displeasure of meeting you in person. You sound like a right twat, dude. XD

  12. Kyle, women don’t always dress the way they do to attract men, some do, some just want to look good for themselves, some are trying to attract other women, I can’t think of anyone I know personally who dresses up just in case they find the man of their dreams, most women I know dress in attractive clothing because they want to loo good – not for any man, but because it makes good about themselves.
    As for women being passive, some are, but even the ones who are passive, should not be whistled and hollered at, if you really are attracted to someone you run into at random, that you never met before, at least be decent enough to approach them respectfully! A simple “Hi, I’m .” rather than whistling at her or “Hey sexy how’s it goin’?”. Just because you want to approach a woman you find attractive doesn’t mean you have to be a douche about it!

    • I agree about passive women not needing the hollering. My friends that are passive, even when dressed for a night out, really hate any confrontation. Respectful approaching is always the best way. Regardless of who the woman is, where you meet her, or how especially how she’s dressed.

  13. Oh. My. Fucking. God.
    I literally just felt sick reading both the article and Kyle’s comment.
    Are you shitting me?
    I live in Canada and, while it’s not common (at least not where I’m from), it does happen. I’m what most people call adorable, and curvy, and it’s because of abusive comments that I don’t like to go outside without wearing a sweater. Yes, even in the summer when it’s blistering hot and the chances of heat stroke are high.
    High necked shirts bother be, and yet I will still wear them just because it offers a little more protection from wandering eyes. But you want to know something? Wearing less revealing clothing doesn’t stop men. Nope. I would be wearing a turtle neck shirt and a sweater, have my hair doing whatever it feels like doing that day and be wearing minimal make up, and still guys will yell cat calls and verbally abuse me.
    Because I’m a female, and I have big tits.
    It’s because of this that, as soon as I have children, I’m considering getting a breast reduction.

    And for those ignorant men who are about to ask why I don’t get it done now if it upsets me so much: I don’t want to fuck up my mammary glands and risk the chance of being unable to breast feed, when that time comes.
    Yes, getting a breast reduction can do that to you.
    And it can also be expensive.
    But if it means avoiding abusive comments made about my body, made about the shape I was born, fuck it.
    I started saving last year after a particularly bad incident.

    • Very, very well said. I agree completely. It really does just amaze me how people ARE actually this stupid and this sexist. Sometimes I forget it’s possible – but then idiots like these force me to be reminded of the fact that women are still treated like shit. It’s just plain awful that you even need to consider having that surgery done. This is not the world I want to finish growing up in and live my life in. I wish it was different, and sometimes I just cry myself stupid because it won’t be changing any time soon. The majority of people out there are prejudiced to the bone.

  14. OOHHHHHH. Okay. You’re dressing up for OTHER WOMEN! I get it now.

    I don’t know where I, or other men, would get the idea you were dressing up to impress MEN!

    How embarrassing.

    • Who the fuck cares WHO anyone dresses up for? How does that make it okay to treat women like shit?

      You’re a pathetic piece of sexist scum.

    • You know, I almost found myself agreeing with you in parts of your argument. This ongoing conflict between male sexuality and female security isn’t quite as one-sided as people (on both sides) paint it. Lots of guys feel insecure, especially as the world moves away from traditionally-male occupations (physical labor like farming, construction, etc) and more towards purely-intellectual pursuits. Guys like my friend Eric, who’s 46 and has been working steadily since he was in his teens. He’s been losing work to younger men, and now his boss is a woman with engineering degrees (plural). At least superficially, the world seems to be shifting in a direction that makes the “man’s man” obsolete.

      This does not in any way excuse the way some men treat women. There absolutely is such a thing as the “crime of being alone and female” and it absolutely does ruin lives. Are there some absolutely terrible women who use their attributes to seduce and embarrass men? Sure there are. I almost ended up dating one. But even if every last woman on earth set out every morning with the intention of belittling and sexually embarrassing every man they met with their seductive good looks, it would STILL not be justification for the treatment women receive. (Slut shaming, victim blaming, catcalls, and of course RAPE)

  15. So when an umpire rules my hit as a “foul ball” I should just explain to him that I mean to hit a home run and everything should go my way then?

  16. Ok.. I have to add this…

    I really hate when guys/men call girls/women “hot” I really hate it :/

    I don’t see my self as a guy really… I see myself as a human who’s attracted to what society calls females.

    • You seem to be making a bundle of assumptions including seeming to know what women are thinking as they get dressed.
      That women don’t approach men.
      That women don’t have/enjoy sex.
      That women are constantly on the look out for male attention.

    • You’re whole damn comment is one big assumption.

      ‘Women have always known man’s strong desire for fulfilling their sexuality, and for hundreds, if not thousands of years, they have taken advantage of it; using their own sexuality as leverage.”

      Says who? Almighty Kyle, who just *knows* he’s right?

      You assume women dress up solely to impress men. You just assume men yelling at women in the street do so because they are so confident.

      You’re just giving the old “if you dress in a certain way, you’re asking for it” bullshit, trying to cloak it in semi-fancy words. And when the backlash comes around, you act as if you’re some enlightened contrarian. Sorry to disappoint you, Kyle, but you’re just repeating pathetic old bullshit.

  17. I’m actively engaged in a loving relationship and I know very well what it’s like to be sexually objectified.

    But please, shower me some more with your baseless assumptions!

  18. “What if she got hurt following my example? Why should she have to worry about that? Is this a legitimate concern?”

    THIS. This is what makes me shut up whenever something like that happens to me.
    Once I was in a club dancing with my friends, and this drunk guy that seemed to be on his own started looking at us and getting closer. We really didn’t want to have anything to do with him, so we sort of closed the circle we were standing in. This meant that I turned a bit more of my back to him. About ten minutes later someone grabs my throat and shoves me up against the wall. I don’t remember exactly what happened, only that he said I was a “stupid little whore” and that once he let go of me my friends were holding my hands and telling me to calm down (apparently I’d raised my hand as if to hit him once he’d let go of me, though I don’t actually remember that). All this happened because I turned my back at a guy. A guy that I didn’t know, that wasn’t even trying to talk with me, but just staring at me and my friends.
    I often wonder what’s wrong with these guys… the ones that think that because you’re a woman you just have to stand there meekly and listen to their filth, that you don’t have the right to refuse any of them because, after all, you’re just a “stupid little whore”.

    • I hope you called the Bouncer and got that guy arrested Bea, because that guy needs to be locked up as what you are describing is essentially attempted rape

      • We did tell the bouncers… but nothing happened. We described the guy, but the place was so packed they didn’t find him. Also, they didn’t seem to take it as seriously as you’d wish them to do.

        The problem with this is of course that this isn’t an isolated incident but a pattern in our society, that women can’t feel safe and don’t dare to speak up against the stupid guys that harass them.

  19. There are too many variables when speaking with you guys.

    Regardless of whether you’re dressing to impress men or women, you still LOOK the same.

    How you LOOK, behave and speak are like a dial on a radio.

    You are attracting everything you experience, you’re just refusing to accept it; trying to put the blame on someone else.

    • Whether I am attractive or not. Whether I try to look a certain way or not. They are incontrol of their behaviour and sexual harressment and intimidation are not ok… ever.

    • From the comment above you basically said and are saying women attract rape on themselves… you are one fucking messed up peice of shit I am shamed of my penis because you even thought of writing that.

        • “You are attracting everything you experience”

          did you say this or didn’t you/

          “You are attracting EVERYTHING you EXPERENCE”

    • You just keep repeating “the bitches deserve it’. And trying to put the blame on someone else? Seems you’re just trying to take away the blame from these perps, because you apparently think men are entitled to talk to/yell at/touch/ any woman they meet. You really are a 18th century knucklehead, aren’t you?

      • How am I saying “the bitches deserve it”?

        If you were paying attention, my POINT is that we all attract our own experiences.

        Whether we “deserve” a thing or not is irrelevant compared to whether or not we’ve attracted it.

        “Deserve” is subjective. The Law of Attraction is Universal and undeniable.

    • It doesn’t matter what people look like. You are always responsible for your own actions.

      And that means the people who are assaulting or harassing other human beings. In this case, that means that it doesn’t matter what the women look like. The men are responsible for their own actions.

    • What, so you’re saying the natural features I was born with give any man the right to objectify me? That said natural features mean a man has the right to verbally abuse me when I don’t respond?

      You’re saying that, by simply walking down the street in jeans and a leather jacket on my way to work, looking forward and standing tall, walking with purpose I’m somehow magically telling the men around me “Please shout and whistle at me. I love it when you call to me like I’m a stray dog!”

      Tell me, then, Mr. I-know-everything-about-women’s-lies, How do I prevent it? Don’t go outside at night? check. Don’t wear form-fitting clothes? check. Don’t wear makeup? check. Don’t be/identify as female? ch- oh, wait, I can’t really control that part, can I?

      You see, none of these arbitrary things matter. What matters is men like you, who think that because a woman simply exists, she is nothing more than eye-candy and fantasy fodder for you and your friends.

    • I’m sorry, Kyle, for whatever horrible bullshit you think you’ve been through that makes you feel the need to victim-blame, but no. Just no. A society that brushes off women as “asking for it” is a pretty pathetic excuse for society. Furthermore, a man that brushes off women this way is a pretty pathetic excuse for a man and I pity you for that reason.
      If you are not literally confirming that you are consenting to sexual contact with someone (as in, you are competent and able to say “Yes”), assume that is a no. Furthermore, a person – male or female – regardless of what anyone around them is wearing or doing – is responsible for their own actions. Period. Suck it up, bro, it’s a part of adulthood. So, if you go to Starbucks, an 18 year old walking by you wearing a miniskirt is not asking you to bang her on those tiny little tables. She is getting herself some fucking coffee. I will not be held responsible for the actions of others because of how I look or dress. I do not leave the house saying to myself “Gee, I’m going to wear this outfit because Mr. Perfect might come along today! TEEHEE!” I dress the way I want to dress because it makes ME happy. Not men. Not women. Myself. There are too many appropriate ways to speak to a woman to whine about not being able to approach them because, clearly, we should all just lower our standards for catcalls and, hell, sex partners, because what’s a little rape here and there when you wore a short skirt and asked for it?

      Kyle, you’re a bit of an arse. Your continued posts only reiterate that fact. You may not have noticed, but you don’t seem to be winning much support regardless of how much idiocy you spew. Quit while you’re ahead, dude. It’s just sad.

    • So basically, if you see a woman who makes you horny, you’re physically incapable of not speaking to her or trying to grab her.

      Actually, it sounds like you need to be under house arrest. That, or move to Saudi Arabia, where the women all wear burqas. Then maybe you could be trusted to go out in public without a chaperone.

  20. I dare say Kyle is having way too much fun getting the ladyfolk all riled up (my assumption of what he might call it) to actually realize what a douche he is. All I can say is that I’m ashamed to share a gender with him.

    • Nah sorry David ( and HBrowne), I’m not going to apologize or be ashamed “as a man” what ever, because some other asshole says some bullshit. So let’s just skip the politically correct “I’m ashamed to have a penis” thing, ok? The fact that some tool and I have the same kind of flesh hanging between our legs, does not mean I have to be ashamed for the bullshit he pulls.

      • There is also no need to be hostile about it.

        I’m not ashamed to be a man either.

        Because I am not those men. I know who I am.

        But it’s understandable that some people are going to feel sad about the actions of others and relate things to themselves in a basic manner.

        • “But it’s understandable that some people are going to feel sad about the actions of others…”

          So far I follow you.

          “…and relate things to themselves in a basic manner.”

          And this is the part were I object again.

          And how was I being hostile? I prefer strong language, yeah, but I wasn’t (trying to be) mean spirited to David.

        • Well, I didn’t say you were being hostile. I said there is no need to be hostile about it.

          But fair enough, I’m not trying to argue about it. I am just trying to be clear.

          I kind of felt that you were, but your writing is ambiguous enough that the reader can perceive it differently from reader to reader.

          And feel free to object, as always.

    • We won’t hold him against you.

      As I’ve often said, “I don’t hate men, I hate assholes. It’s not my fault if some people think there’s no difference.”

  21. As for what went down at the gas station, you didn’t have to say anything.

    You just couldn’t suppress your feelings any more. And there’s no blame in that.

    All those guys wanted was attention, and how they would respond would be determined on what kind of attention they got in response to what they were projecting.

    Had you said nothing to them, I’m sure they would have projected some kind of ignorance, but there’s nothing you can do about that.

    But (to support my “you are attracting your experience”) you responded quite dramatically. So THEIR response was perfect.

    You might not have enjoyed it, but it was still a perfect response to what you projected on to them in response to how they approached you at the gas station.

    You felt that you needed to say something. You decided it was time to put your foot down. And in doing so, you stimulated a response.

    You can’t put everything on everyone else. You have to assume some responsibility.

    And you can’t tell me I’m wrong when I suggest the way women dress DESPITE who they dress FOR will illicit a certain type of response from an assortment of people.

    If I dress up like a police officer, people will act differently around me compared to being dressed up as a male nurse.

    Those guys were just having fun and you were at your breaking point. Their intentions were to have a good time and you didn’t want to play along. You took it as a way that was different than they wanted you to take it.

    And then you come on the internet to try to be a hero; making all men look bad when it was just a group of guys in that car at the gas station you were filling up at.

    Yes, there are many guys like that, but that’s not most guys, not by a stretch.

    When I go out and when I see attractive women walking down the street, MOST men look, VERY FEW men actually say anything.

    This post is making it out to look like it’s the opposite when it’s really not that way.

    It’s just YOUR interpretation of YOUR experience.

    • True, plenty of men don’t say anything.

      But the inaction of other men isn’t in question here.

      It’s the actions of men who do say something that in the experiences of these people have been overwhelmingly bad.

    • As a woman that gets advances quite a bit based on my physical appearance there is a significant difference between men “wanting to have fun” and men that are vicious. I have been following sex+ for a while and she does not strike me as someone who would overreact to men “wanting to have fun”. Those men are deflected with a flirty smile and a polite no. What she is describing is an instance where men are feeding off of each other and creating a much more toxic environment, not unlike the types of rapes that happen in college towns. Those men, individually, may not be vicious, but when they are together “looking for a good time” there is a real element of danger.

  22. I’m build to respond, so I’ll respond as long as there is something to respond to.

    My response is always going to be perfect based on the energy that is being projected towards me.

    If you want a different version of me, change YOUR attitudes, and stop expecting me to change mine for your sake.

  23. “Kyle is this and Kyle is that” and you guys have known me for 1 hour out of the 250,000 hours that I’ve been in this physical body.

    So stop talking like you know anything about me and focus on the real issues.

    • “My response is always going to be perfect based on the energy that is being projected towards me.”

      In the one hour you did paint a nice picture of what kind of guy you are though. No really, you and your responses are perfect. How could I have missed that?

  24. Yin does this, so yang does that. And because yang did that yin is going to do this.

    After yin does what yin does yang does a thing. When yin sees yang do a thing, yin will do another thing.

  25. You guys are so lucky to have been born with a level of awareness that allows you to deny responsibility for your own thoughts, feelings, actions and experiences.

    • I’m sure I was responsable for having a knife to my throat by a guy I didn’t know and he tried to force me to suck his dick untill he asked how old I was when I said “16″ he stopped but still had the knife to me and walked me to my house incase I called the police he’ll now where to go and I thought I’ll walk a long way and we walked passed this house where there was domestic voilcence happening he made us stop hide behind a care to listen and it sounded like a women was being beaten or a man was smashing up the house, so he knocked on the front door… I made my escape so as an “escape was an experence” you’re saying I’m responsable for a man “maybe” beating up his wife? and me having a knife to my throat?

    • I’m sorry Kyle, but you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. The idea that women attract certain behaviour from men based on their dress/attitude is not true.

      You said you’re in a committed relationship right now. Ask your girlfriend about her experiences with harassment. Ask her how many times it’s happened, where she was, what time it was, what she was wearing, how she felt about it etc. Then ask other women you’re close to; your mom, sister, good friends. Don’t judge, just listen to the information they give you and remember it.

      If you ask enough women about their experiences, you’ll find two things; that it’s happened ALL women of every size, shape, colour, age, sexual orientation, economic class, and style of dress, and that there’s no discernible pattern or criteria for harassment. If you’re a woman it doesn’t matter what you wear, when you go out, what neighbour you live in – you WILL experience harassment at some point. Even if you’re not showing any skin.

      However, this does not mean that ALL men are harassers, nor does it mean that Laci was implying they were. I get the feeling this was what set you off, feeling that you were being accused of responsibility for Laci’s incident just by being male. A portion of the male population exhibiting sexist behaviour =/= all men exhibiting sexist behaviour, and we know that – but you going around accusing women of inviting their harassment is not exactly the way to go about letting people know that not all men are assholes.

      On that same note, the idea that men can’t control themselves when looking at a woman, or that they can be goaded into a certain behaviour by a woman’s style of dress is simply man-hating and misandrist. You’re completely ignoring the autonomy, thoughts, reason and morals of men in favour of placing blame on women. Men are complete human beings who are in control of their own actions.

      In the end, your understanding of the subject as a whole is one-sided and limited, and the conclusions about male and female behaviour you’ve subsequently drawn from your incomplete information are not only wrong, but they’re not doing either gender any favours. Men and women both are better than you think they are.

    • Okay, I know you’re never going to read this, but I just have to say something.

      I’m not the one denying responsibility; you are. I don’t understand how you can’t see the faults in your argument. I’ll break it down for you real simple-like:

      Nobody has the right to harass anybody, ever. Period, ever, never ever never never ever never.

      You’re backing up the men who harassed Laci by saying that they were just trying to “have fun” and their actions were misconstrued. Well, by your logic that women should be more aware of how their own actions (Dressing “provocatively,” happening to be a woman, etc.) could be misconstrued by men, maybe the men who harass women should think about how their actions can be “misconstrued” by women. Maybe, just maybe, on the basis that we’re all human beings who deserve to feel safe and respected, catcalling and harassing is never appropriate. No matter what, a woman is never asking for it, and the men who believe that it’s okay to treat women this way are completely wrong and insensitive.

      Oh, but K, I can see the slight curve of your breasts through that boatneck shirt because you’re a woman and you have boobs! Surely that means that I have the right to aggressively approach you while you’re walking around on the phone and say “I’ma lick dat pussy up.” Surely, because you were bold enough to leave the safety of your own room while being a woman, you were subconsciously seeking male attention!

      This isn’t a matter of women needing to control their “actions,” if you want to consider being a woman an action. This is a matter of certain men needing to really think about the ways in which they can harm others. If I’m walking around, regardless of what I’m wearing, I have the right to feel safe, the right to not constantly have to peer over my shoulder to see if I’m being followed. This IS a cultural thing. See the comments further up by people who have spent time in Iceland. This sort of sexual harassment isn’t the norm there. Men don’t have to behave viscerally and animalistically based on their sexual impulses. If you believe that women should throw men a bone because the poor men just can’t help themselves at the sight of boobs or legs or whatever, then you’re the one giving men a bad name, not us.

  26. Good for you, Laci! I can’t stand when guys do that, and I’m glad you stood up for yourself. But I definitely understand being unsure about the other person’s reaction – I usually don’t respond because I am afraid of violence.

  27. Guys, at this point, Kyle is clearly a troll, and remember the golden rule of the internet, don’t feed the trolls. Just ignore him and he will go away

      • I find that it’s a great way to train your patience.

        I think the bane of most trolls is reasonable discussion. Eventually they either get bored and go away because you responded normally to everything they said (because they want grief and such, not a pleasant conversation) or find that they prefer normalcy to retardation and get a little less trollish.

        Of course, the later is far less likely.

  28. one time i was walking to the convenience store down the block while on my lunch break at work. As i was crossing the street a car was stopped at the intersection. As i walked by i heard something like “hey girl! how you doin?” and other shit like that. It seemed like they were yelling at me, as there was no one else around, but i just ignored it. Then more “what are you, deaf? what’s up baby?” ….. this was back when i had long hair, so apparently this fooled the shouter. i turned around and raised my hands in a WTF motion. The look on the guy’s face was PRICELESS when he realized that i was just a GUY with long hair. And his buddys in the car laughed their asses off at him. I bet they still mock him about that incident to this day. so guys, if you’re gonna be a douche and yell at girls out of your car window while driving around with your buds, you better be sure they are actually girls, lest your sexuality be called into question.

  29. The frustration of being harassed by strangers because of your appearance is definitely something I can relate to. I think it is particularly difficult if you have lived in the same place all your life because it becomes very easy to feel like the whole world is like that.

    Currently, I am living somewhere where that happens to me quite a bit (though it’s less than in some places I have been) and I find that it helps a lot to know that the whole world isn’t like that. Well, actually, it’s not really any less here. It’s more that I live where old people go to die and they aren’t very threatening. I still get a lot of looks and comments.

    But that’s not the point. The point is that it sucks. Worrying about your sister and whether or not your example was a good one is a very legitimate concern. Personally, I have similar worries with people whose duty it is for me to protect.

    I definitely wish it were a better world where I didn’t have to, but the truth is that the world is the way it is and approaching it without reality in mind is delusional. I think what you did was a good thing. You demonstrated bravery and strength in a time when you weren’t in real (or extreme) danger. It sets a good example for standing up for yourself.

    And I think I know what you are worried about. What about when you aren’t there? What about when the correct course of action is running away and not standing up for yourself? I have those worries too. But I think that the right thing to do is just to also teach your sister (or whoever) to fight when it’s appropriate and run when it’s appropriate. It’s tough, and it’s complicated, but arming them to face the world is the right thing to do. Because one day you won’t be there and if you didn’t teach them right then you failed them.

    Off the top of my head, there are three things which I think are important and (even though some sound clichéd) are really hard for people to learn. Especially for young people who have that energy which makes them think they are invincible sometimes.

    1)“Don’t go looking for trouble.” That’s one of the most clichéd of them all. But I think it’s really important and really hard to actually abide by. I think people have a bad tendency to get themselves into danger when they think they are vindicated or that things ‘should’ be a certain way.

    2)“Know when to run away.” I think most things aren’t worth dying for. Swallow your pride and just run. This is another really obvious/clichéd one, but I think it’s still really hard to learn. Also, makes me think of this song

    3)“Learn how to fight, so that you don’t have to fight.” I think most people give this advice as just “Learn how to fight.” I think that’s wrong. Because I think most people seem to continue that as “Learn how to fight, so you can ignore the first rule and go looking for trouble.” I think that you need to learn how to fight so that if you absolutely have to then you can defend yourself, but primarily so that you can avoid fights more efficiently. This is achieved in multiple ways, two of which are that you understand fights better and can more expertly maneuver around them and the other is that people are less likely to pick on you if you look like/behave as if you can defend yourself. (Be careful though, bravado increases the chances of a fight. Bravado is not what I am talking about. And that is exactly the sort of thing I think one needs to learn about fighting in order to stay safe.)

    Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. I’ll try not to keep rambling on forever. I really could keep talking about the subject for a long time. Aside from that is just the general anger and irritation at those assholes.

    Oh, and as always, I an unqualified to give this advice. These are my thoughts and this advice is given with good intentions, but my opinions are formed mostly from my own life experiences and I am not qualified or trained to give advice.
    My PhD is in Street Fighter.

  30. Interesting response Kyle.

    - “Women have been pretty good at playing the victim all throughout history. When they could have chosen to embrace their femininity, they demanded “equality”. Like men and women are some how “equals” in their entirety.”

    What exactly does “embrace their femininity” mean in this context? Also, women “throughout history” have not demanded equality. That is a very recent phenomenon indeed, so how does that pertain to your analysis of female behavior throughout history?

    Men and women are equals in their entirety in so much as both are human beings. Lack of equality implies one being inferior and one being superior. While I would certainly agree that men and women, on average, are DIFFERENT in many respects, biologically, psychologically, socially, it is not at all clear to me how one gender is at any time inferior or superior.

    So in that respect, I cannot see how you would argue that men and women are not equals in their entirety.

    - “Scary/frustrating events like this are born from decades of suppressed self-expression.”

    Whose surpressed self-expression? Men’s or women’s? That is not clear to me.

    “Women have always known man’s strong desire for fulfilling their sexuality, and for hundreds, if not thousands of years, they have taken advantage of it; using their own sexuality as leverage.”

    Only for hundreds of years? When in human history did women realize they could leverage their sexuality? You’ll excuse me if I fail to see how you could possibly come to the conclussion that this is something women have been doing for only hundreds (or maybe thousands) of years.

    The way I read history, women have, for all of “civilized” history been denied the right to “leverage their sexuality” by powerful patriarchal societies. Women have been sold, married away by their fathers, kept from positions of influence in society, and been branded whores and prostitutes when they DID try to “leverage their sexuality”.

    Yes, I am sure that many women throughout history have tried to garner influence in a male dominated world by using the “power they have over men”, both as lovers, and as sisters and mothers, but Patriarchal societies (which are practically all societies since after the stone age) have been structured precisely so as to limit that power as much as possible. So while women may have had a little more influence than history generally gives them credit for, it has certainly been an uphill struggle. The “Virgin” archetype has been the only image of a woman held in any regard in Patriarchal history: the one woman archetype that does NOT “leverage her sexuality”.

    - “Being aware of this, men have become less sensitive to the individual woman – especially if she’s a stranger.”

    Again, your reading of history strikes me as rather flawed. Do you truly think men have become less sensitive towards women over the course of history? The type of behavior from young men Laci describes has always been there, and been alot more aggresive in many societies. When it hasn’t, like say in Victorian England, it has not been out of respect for the individual woman, but out of respect for her father or husband (her “owner”). And this was only if that man had any standing in society. Poor street girls in Victorian London was hooted and hollered at as much as any woman today.

    While I’m not excusing modern men on the grounds that men in history have been worse, I’m saying that the type of behavior Laci and her sister experienced is at least rarer these days, that is AFTER women have stood up and demanded equality. It sounds to me like you are suggesting Laci would have been better of “in the good ol’ days”, as though men were somehow pillars of virtue (pun intended) before women stood up and demanded equality and stopped “embracing their femininity” (or started doing so? I still don’t get what you meant by that…)

    - “When a man, or group of men, see a new, cute woman, their default mindset is “I’ll make a half-ass effort being full aware that most women think I just want to have sex with her, and if she rejects me I’ll have fun with it (or make her uncomfortable) to compensate for my embarrassment.””

    I don’t know what you do to strange women in the street, but I don’t generally try to make sexual advances on complete strangers. I LOOK at complete strangers alot, because women seem to have that effect on me, but if I make eye-contact I smile an embarresed smile and look away. I don’t generally have the courage to try and adress strange women, with the intention of flirting, perhaps to my detriment, but I hope that if I felt compelled to do so someday, because the woman in question was just that awesome looking, I would at least be able to muster something polite like: “I’m sorry I didn’t mean to stare, but it is just that you are very beautiful”, rather than “hey sexy, what you up to tonight? Wanna have a good time?”

    Rape is almost entirely a male on female crime. Therefore being a woman alone makes you more vulnerable to the emotions of inease and fear when strangers adress you unsolicited. It’s unfair, but as you rightly point out, men and women ARE different, so that’s just the way it is. I’m sure that among the 3.5 billion women on the planet there are a few that are very sexually aggressive, but they are too few to put all us men in an uncomfortable position. If the world was different, and women routinely hooted and hollered at me in the street, and I knew that rape was something that happens to young men often, then I’m pretty sure I’d be creeped out as well. I’m not a piece of meat thank you very much. Neither are women, including the ones I sometimes stare at in the street. I know this perfectly well. I suspect you do too. So why would you not encourage people to treat them as more than that?

    - “Women do their best every day to get dressed up and do their make-up the best then can JUST IN CASE their paths cross with the man of their dreams.”

    Now this is just blatantly intrue, and you know it. SOME women SOMETIMES do alot to get “tarted up” as it were, and they have every right to do so, wether they are doing so because they are going to meet their partner, going to work, or just are comforming to societal pressure to not be ugly. I think you are seriously misrepresenting the reason women put on clothes and make-up if you think it is SOLELY for the benifit of the one man they suspect is out there. Women dress up for women as well, because they can be really judgemental to each other, they dress up for society in general to comform to social norms, and they dress up for themselves as well, because they like to look healthy, clean and happy when they look in the mirror. So do I.

    But regards of wether they are doing it for healthy confident reasons, or because they are being pressured by their own insecurities to a greater or lesser extent, I fail to see how that can license anyone to mistreat or disrespect them for doing what everyone else does, including men.

    Are you suggesting all women wear burkas? Or walk around naked, without make-up? I still don’t understand what you are suggesting? Are women slutty man-eaters who should show some modesty? Or are they insecure comformists who should let their inner cavewoman out, throw off their clothes, put mud in their hair, and just kick any man in the balls who looks at them funny? Personally I would advocate the second one if I had to choose, but I suspect there are other options as well.

    - “But the reality of the situation is that ALL men get to see what she’s advertising, and out of all of those men MORE than just the guy she wants is going to be attracted to what he sees.”

    And so what? Do you feel obliged to acknowledge every single woman who is attracted to you? Is it your duty to sleep with any woman who shows an interest in you? Even the ones that show that interest by intimidating you?

    - “Some of these men have enough confidence to “make an attempt” at establishing a connection realising his chances are slim.”

    You’ll forgive me if I don’t see how a group of men hooting at two lone young women is a display of confidence. If one man walks up to a group of women and tells one of them he thinks she is attractive and would like to get to know her better, that I would consider confident. But to hoot and holler at a young woman on her own, while you are yourself in a group of men doesn’t take confidence: it takes tactlessness.

    How to adress a stranger on their own, without being a creepy douche:

    Walk up to them and stand at an appropriate distance and say in a polite voice:

    “Excuse me, could you tell me the way too…”
    “Excuse me, could you help me with…”
    Or some similar excuse. Then if the person responds with a smile and body language that suggests they are not threatened or weirded out, you can follow up with:
    “How about them Yankees?”
    Or similarly appropriate small talk. Striking up a conversation is as simple as figuring out wether the other person has any interest in talking to you in the first place. This is usually established within the first two exchanges of sentences.

    If she is not interested, she will make that clear right away with body language and the manner in which she responds to your request, and as you say, chances will always be slim, but at least this way, you can give the girl a chance to turn you down politely, instead of having to explode, like Laci was forced to.

    You could be a shirtless Brad Pitt on a fucking White horse, but if you shout “Hey mamasita, you lookin’ fine 2nite! Wanna get with a real man?” You’re chances aren’t slim: they are non-existant.

    Laci got angry because her system was flooded with adrenilin. This is the way the body responds to DANGER, not lust. Laci was sensing DANGER, and that’s why she got so angry: her body told her “fight or flight” and she chose fight, which is cool, cause it gave those assholes something to think about, but the only other option she had in that situation was flight; in this case meaning looking away and ignoring the guys, quickly fill up the car, and drive away as quickly as possible, all the while feeling violated, scared, and generally freaked out.

    The reason she sensed danger is not necesserily that these guys where rapists; thankfully most douchebags are just douchebags, and not any real threat. But their behavior is aggresive, just like a wolf-pack seeing another wolf-pack and snarling at them. When we shout inappropriate and intimate things at strangers, we are excibiting a social behavior that all mammals recognize as aggresive: not necesserily violent, but certainly an attempt to dominate the stranger. It’s simple animal behaviour. If you think they are just well intentioned attempts at getting to know said strangers… well then you are wrong… plain and simple. This is the way social animals, in this case humans, can behave under certain circumstances, and that is not an excuse, just an observation. So what I’m saying is, if you really DO want to strike up a conversation with a stranger, especially someone in a position to find you threatening (like a man adressing a lone woman) then either excibit submissive behavior to indicate a non-threat, like any good primate would, or acknowledge that what you are doing is just thumping your chest and showing your giant red butt: in short, being a douche.

    And don’t complain afterwards if the threatee shows her fangs and chases you away with your tail between your legs. It wasn’t her who started it.

    “It amazes me how many women scapegoat men this way.”

    So what you’re saying is, Laci is here scapegoating the men that talked to her, because in reality it was her fault for putting on make-up? How do you know she was even wearing make-up that day? By an objective standard, Laci is a fairly attractive woman, but without make-up or revealing clothes one can hardly fault her for being attractive (and as I’ve said earlier, she has every right to wear whatever clothes and make-up she likes). But she is not the only one that suffers this kind of behaviour. Most young women, if they are alone, or in small groups, will get cat calls and similar behavior simply by virtue of being alone. That was the point of Laci’s post. It’s not about women flaunting their stuff: it’s about a social mammal seeing a lone outsider, and harrasing that outsider to display social dominance in their own group, and intimidating the stranger. Most young men don’t consciencesly realize this is what they are doing, but it is: as I said: your chances aren’t slim: they are non-existent. So it’s not about “getting to know her better”.

    “It wouldn’t go this way if women toned it down a bit – revealing less skin and doing less to accentuate their femininity – and started playing a more active role in mating and re productivity. Instead they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to look as attractive as they can and then they are PASSIVE/seductive, leaving it to ALL MEN to decide amongst themselves which of them should approach or talk to you.”

    And hear we come to the heart of your objection: so it’s all about you feeling women are being passive, yet seductive, and expecting you to make the first move. Well Boo fucking hoo!. I don’t like that fact any more than you do, but that has absolutely ZERO to do with the post Laci made here. Shouting at strangers in the street is not how you make a move on a girl: it’s how you threaten and intimidate strangers. It is a form of behavior intended to strengthen the bond between the group of men doing the harrasing: if a pair of homosexual men walk by hand in hand, and the guys shout: “OOHhh, look at the faggits, aren’t they just cute!” it is the exact same type of behavior: it’s called sexual harrasment, and anyone can do it to anyone: men can belittle other men’s sexuality by questioning their sexual prowess, or their sexual orientation: The same group could shout at a long haired guy, or a guy in a pink shirt that he’s a girlyman, and get the same result: The shouting guy turns to his friends with a smirk and thinks: “look at me thumping my chest, ain’t I just the Alfa-dog in our little pack?” it is about power, not about sex or romance. It’s a display, usually done for an audience of an ingroup, which is why lone men rarely shout at lone women.

    The fact that women expect you to make the first move is a different matter all together, and frankly it’s embarresing for you that you write such a passive-aggresive response to Laci’s post based on your own insecurities in an entirely different area of human interaction.

    But since I’ve dug this far down, let me give you some advice:

    Yes, I too find it frustrating at times that if you are a slightly insecure man, and you desperately want women to notice you, it seems you have to be more direct and open with them than you are comfortable with. But the truth is, women actually DO tell you they are interested, not just with body language and suptle conversational clues, but with words and deeds as well.

    I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Laci once, and I can assure you, she is a perfectly forthcoming and friendly person, and she has no problem speaking her mind. I’m sure if she saw a guy she was interested in she would go up to him and strike up a conversation. She probably wouldn’t say: “I wanna sleep with you, you in?” to just anyone, but then again, who WOULD say that? I’m sure it’s an appropriate thing to say in some rare situations, but for the most part, we all want to get to know people a little bit before deciding we wanna pursue them sexually, even if we find them very attractive from the get go.

    So what you need to do is allow the women in your life, your co-workers, the friends of your friends, to get a chance to come on to you: speak to them, look them in the eye, read their body language. There are women out there who want to sleep with you, and some of them, you will want to sleep with as well. Trust me. Stop being angry and bitter that they are all prancing around in skimpy outfits, but are really just teases, who doesn’t want anything to do with you. There are 3.5 billion or so women in the world. It would be the hight of arrogance for ANY MAN, no matter HOW attractive he is, to expect all of them to want him. But some of them do want you, at least as long as you treat them with respect.

    Lay off the self rightious bitterness, and you may just notice one or two of them.

    Sincerly Nikolaj.

  31. Not saying that there is an excuse for this type of behavior, but I can say that your gender (not generalizing) plays an equal role in letting this happen. The reason why these boys did what they did is either a) They’ve done it before, and it worked. b) They’re trolls, and they just wanted to get a rise out of you. Mission accomplished.

    There are so many men out there who have absolutely no respect for women, and they get laid. A LOT. Then you have the nice guys, the pushovers, etc. who see men who get what they want by being rude, obnoxious, insulting and disrespectful, so they think that’s the only way they’re ever going to get laid, and adopt the attitude for themselves.

    My point is that if you’re going to deduce this down to an issue that is separated by gender, you need to call out the women who respond to this type of behavior, and lay some of the blame on them. Also, women do this to men a lot as well, probably more often than you would think. The stereotype (which we generally fit into) is that we’re all pigs with one-track minds anyways, so it’s acceptable to treat us with as much disrespect.

    I used to work in a night club that was a frequent destination for bachelorette parties. Talk about a sense of entitlement. I would watch them gang up on and degrade other men just for kicks. Granted, most of the men they were harassing were too stupid to realize what was going on, and get the look in their eyes like, “If I play my cards right, these girls will pass me around like a football tonight.” A lot of women thought that they could just come up to the DJ booth and flash their tits, and I’d be obligated to play whatever music they wanted me to play and let them harass me all night. The club owner expected me to put up with it, which was why I ended up quitting. It’s sad because some people appreciated my work and loved to hear me play, but the behavior a small group of women ruined it for everyone.

    This issue is definitely a two-way street. Another issue I have is that when I talk openly and honestly about sex, I’m labeled as some kind of perverted creep. When a woman like yourself talks openly and honestly about sex, they are praised and admired and it’s called Sex Positive. Seems like that kind of attitude defeats the purpose. It should be about having an open dialogue built on mutual respect, not just something that is primarily attributed to sexually liberated women.

    • That tactic has never worked before, men continue to do it. A large group of people is enough to intimidate people into not reacting to it. If she had not reacted to it you would have blamed her for it, since she did you now say it’s her fault for letting them get a rise out of her.

      Yeah I’m wary of any sentence that starts “I’m not saying this behavior is okay, but…”

      If women were somehow responsible for this behavior it would only be because they are doing it to other people themselves, but they aren’t, so it is still only the fault of men. (not all men do this, but also, only men do this, 99% of the time)

      • Don’t get it twisted, I’m glad she stuck up for herself, and more women should do this. I’m being more critical of this post than her response. Be wary all you want, but I am definitely not condoning that kind of behavior, and none of my statements would suggest that.

        Perhaps you didn’t read my entire post before responding, but women do act like this at times, and I have been the victim of it. I gave up a good-paying job because I was tired of being harassed by drunk women. I would ask you to back up your 99% statement.

        • I have been to bars with bachelorette parties. They can be just as offensive as the group of men described in the post. I assure you, they offend women too. It’s unfortunate that your boss expected you to accept that behavior.

      • DJ Meph, I think your reply was a bit far off topic. Laci wasn’t flashing her tits and expecting special treatment. She was putting gas in her car and minding her own business.

        She was then harassed by a bunch of jerks, jerks that are not then free of responsibility because of how other women may or may not have treated them in the past.

        And you know, the thing is, I have had some similar experiences to you, DJ Meph. It’s not like women are perfect. There is good and bad in every single human group. Things are complicated.

        But that’s not Laci’s fault. That doesn’t mean it’s every woman’s fault. In fact, it doesn’t mean it’s most women’s fault either.

        In your second paragraph I think you appear to basically excuse the majority of men, but yet somehow most women are not excused? I think it’s normal to remember the loud obnoxious men and women more than the quiet nice ones, but that doesn’t mean that the loud obnoxious ones represent the majority.

        • You clearly did not understand a word of what I wrote. I do not expect that Laci is going around harassing men, just as she hopefully doesn’t think that I go around barking at women in gas stations. I certainly did not blame her for what happened. The title says it all, she was only guilty of being alone and female.

          I’m only saying that she should be calling out the women who respond to this type of behavior, because there are a LOT who do. Another bit of wisdom that I picked up working at various clubs. Typically, the drunkest, most obnoxious douchebag in the room will insult, degrade and harass women all night and usually have his pick of a few hotties with low self-esteem to take home. It disgusted me, and as females, it should disgust you even more. These women encourage the behavior of asshole men, and that has a lot to do with why Laci got harassed in the first place.

          Another thing is that there are a lot of men out there who adopt this attitude against their better judgment, because they don’t think they can get women any other way. Can you fully blame them? Every once in a while a strong female will tell them to fuck off, but knowing that you’ll have better luck in the future with that strategy makes it pretty easy to laugh it off with the “You’re cute when your mad” line. They’ll likely find a girl with low self-esteem that falls for it next time.

          Of course, this also invites a discussion on how society and men put ridiculous standards on women that lead to low self-esteem, and that is a topic I’d gladly discuss as well.

          But the dialogue needs to be opened up more to address both sides of the problem. I hope that Laci might address this in a future post.

          Also, I hope that no one sensed any hostility towards Laci in my tone, because I have nothing but love for her. I’m frustrated with dating in general right now. There are personal issues involved.

          I have been good friends with this girl for about four years now. I am completely in love with her, I would walk through fire for her, and I know she feels the same about me. For various reasons we have always kept it platonic. The idea of dating seriously has become more feasible recently, but I’m dismayed with the fact that she sometimes falls victim to her own low self-esteem, and gets crushed by assholes that treat her like garbage. It tears me apart inside. I just want her to feel good about herself, but taking on that project is not a good basis to start a romantic relationship.

          Hopefully that gives a bit of perspective.

        • “Another thing is that there are a lot of men out there who adopt this attitude against their better judgment, because they don’t think they can get women any other way. Can you fully blame them?” Yes. I think so.

          “I think you appear to basically excuse the majority of men, but yet somehow most women are not excused?” That was something I said. And I say it again.

          I’m reading what you are writing and what I understand is that some men are only assholes because most women give them no other choice. I think that sounds a lot like you are placing the blame on women and exempting the culpability from men.

          I’m not defending women as a race. I’m saying that problems are complicated. And I think that I don’t know all the details of the problems we are discussing nor do I know how to solve these issues perfectly. I think there is a lot I do not know.

          But I do think that what you are saying is askew. I do not think that the responses of women are what cause misbehavior by men. I do not think how women respond to assholes is the crux of the issue. I do not think that this is what needs to be addressed to solve such a problem in society.

          And I am not trying to demonize you either. I don’t think you sound like a bad person. I just think that you are mistaken.

          • I think that empathy is important in this situation. Most of the major, systemic problems we have in our society are due to lack of empathy on someone’s part. We’ve been indoctrinated to believe that having empathy for someone is akin to having sympathy for them, so we’re left with our assumptions, and we all know what happens when assumptions are made. No problem ever gets solved that way.

            If you drop your wallet in public, who knows what the person behind you is going to do. Unfortunately, some people are going to swoop it up quick and act like it never happened. They might be a complete jerk, or they might be thinking they could use some extra cash to feed their kids. Either way it doesn’t make it more or less right, but if we can better understand why people do the things they do, it can go a long way towards solving the problem.

            The fact is that we live in a society where degrading and insulting women is rewarded. It sucks that people have such low self-esteem that they have no shame in taking advantage of that. It would be great if we were all principled enough to treat women with respect simply because it’s the right thing to do.

            We can’t rely on people to have good character, but the last thing we can do to solve the problem is to let that behavior get rewarded the way it is. At what point do we stand up against the enablers, and let them know they’re ruining it for everyone else?

            Do you really want to solve the problem, or do you just want a reason to complain?

            • First of all I’m not experienced in these matters, I’m not social, and never seen any examples of pick-ups at parties or anything… Buuuut:

              On men who attract women by being assholes, the women accepting this, and the men who adopt this way of picking up women:
              To me it sounds like all parties think that ‘this is the way things are and it works’.

              I think education is essential, discussion and teaching of healthy relationships of all kinds would help. Especially government endorsed/part of curriculum.

  32. This is just another story to my collection of not understanding the ways people try to get laid.
    I mean, does that seriously work for them, ever?
    Anyways I kind of feel sorry for people like that, there should be bars and clubs entirely dedicated to getting laid, not everyone who walks outside their door is interested!

  33. This is why I carry mace. I’ve had guys yell, but NEVER walk up to me. I am not sure what I would do. I think I’d be too scared to react. Situations like that make me afraid to walk alone anywhere, day or night. I am so sorry! :/

  34. Man, I’m impressed that you stood up to those guys. I always get incredibly scared in these kinds of situations. I wish I was braver. But yeah, reiterating what others have said; it doesn’t matter whether you’re pretty or not, or what you’re wearing, it happens all the time. I’m from a relatively ‘good’ area and still it happens. The other day I was walking home from the train station past a bar, and this guy calls out to me “Hey babe, what time do your legs open?”. Seriously, what am I supposed to say this. He was maybe late 50s, and I look about 15/16. Another time I was out in town and a guy stopped me and said “Come back to my place and I’ll fuck the shit out of you”. In that circumstance, I almost laughed.. how could that pick up line ever work! My worst incidence was a guy at a house party who would not leave me alone, despite 3 of my friends telling him I was not interested. He followed me into the bathroom (no lock) and held the door shut. Single scariest experience of my life when he wouldn’t let me leave and tried to get into me. I will say though that for every guy who does something like this, there’s hundreds more who treat girls well.

    • Uh, no, I think you’ll find the assholes are the majority, unfortunately. Of both genders. Only a minority think critically about issues like this (prejudice). I’ve yet to meet more than 10 people I truly respect. Then again, I’ve only been on the Earth 16 years.

  35. “Immediately I worried that I had set a bad example for my sister. What if she allowed her anger get the best of her when she was being harassed? What if it was with the wrong person and they retaliated back? What if she got hurt following my example? Why should she have to worry about that? Is this a legitimate concern?”

    It is a legitimate concern. Most assholes will back off when you react like that but in rare cases it could turn an uncomfortable situation into something much worse. Please always be aware of your surroundings when lashing out and please consider what kind of a person you are confronting. Is the person intoxicated? Does he have friends with him? Has he harassed you physically? etc.

    Understand that to those assholes the situation was all about them and their egos. By lashing out and challenging their macho bullshit antics you caused them to worry about losing face. This can provoke the asshole into continuing or even escalating the situation. This is propably why they followed you when you left the station. With that in mind it’s very good that you didn’t spit on their car.

    I still think what you did was awesome. Just be careful when doing it in the future. Your personal safety should always come first.

    For those who consider arming themselves: A weapon WILL NOT keep you safe. For a weapon to be effective you must first know how to use it and you must know that violence is going to happen BEFORE it happens. A can of mace in your bag won’t do you any good if you are already on the ground getting the shit kicked out of you and nothing says “oops” like getting shot with your own gun. Even if you do manage to use your weapon you must be able to justify the use of force or you’ll be spending your days in jail.

    That said consider the situations where violence does happen. For example think about what kate said: “My worst incidence was a guy at a house party who would not leave me alone, despite 3 of my friends telling him I was not interested. He followed me into the bathroom (no lock) and held the door shut. Single scariest experience of my life when he wouldn’t let me leave and tried to get into me.” Would a weapon help in a situation like that? When you get to a point where you have to use force in order to protect yourself you are already fucked. At that point all your options suck.

    Be smart and stay safe.

    • I think this is good advice.

      Do your best to evade trouble. Personally, I have been in plenty of dicey situations and have considered carrying weapons before, but I have never chosen to do it.

      I have weapons in my home, but not weapons for carrying around. I disagree with the idea that there is never a situation where a weapon can be useful, but I do think that it has limited uses. I also think that people who do carry weapons use them much too freely.

      I don’t think one should use weapons willy-nilly. Even mace. I’ve seen guys get maced for similarly stupid comments.

      It’s not right to respond to verbal harassment with physical violence. That’s the sort of thing I worry about. Hurting people who don’t deserve it.

      Frankly, even without weapons to assist me, I’ve hurt people more than they deserved and I can honestly say that I think it’s a lot more likely that I am going to hurt someone who doesn’t deserve it than someone who does deserve it if I carry a concealed weapon.

      This is part of why I don’t like the idea of carrying weapons.

  36. I remember walking down the streets of San Fran with my sister and these creepy guys started hitting on us. Both of us. I didn’t like the fact that they were doing it to me and I DOUBLY hated the fact that they were doing it to my little sister. So in my fit of crazy rage, I yelled out “STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER” (Yeah, “daughter” Idonfuckinknow.) and pulled out a harmonica from my bag, wielding it like mace. The creeps all ran in fear and my sister and I shared high fives as we took off.


  37. I find myself at odds with common sense here. For the record: This is not my “strategy” either. But I wonder what makes you think that these dudes lack the “right” to do what they did.The way you describe the events, I feel that the thing which upset you were YOUR anticipations about THEIR bad intentions. What if it is just their “game”? At the end of the day, what we all want is love, and so do they, I assume. Maybe they failed too many times; maybe it is just some “trial and error” method. I don’t think we should blame them so quickly. You and many others might think that this is a sign of disrespect – maybe it is just a sign of resignation?

    Their behaviour alone doesn’t make them rapists or something alike.

    Just my two cents :-)

    Greetings from Mainz, Germany.

  38. OMG. IK. & its not getting any better. I’m 14, and while walking home one day, I was on the phone with my mother,and a truck full of guys passed by me and wolf whistled yelling stuff sticking their arms out of the car at me. My mom heard and questioned me about it later… how embarassing. >.< There is a college campus by my house and at the time I was walking passed it, so I'm guessing they figured I was a college student, but seriously… I'm 14. This shouldn't be happening.

  39. Ugh! I spend a significant amount of time roaming alone in public, and I can’t walk one damn block without getting harassed–REGARDLESS if I’m decked out in lace and heels or rocking the just-rolled-out-of-bed look. So I feel there isn’t anything I can do to avoid it. I used to do the whole routine of ignoring people, but christ, you’re bound to make eye contact with people right?! And it’s like you just throw an unlucky glance in their direction and they take that as a cue to be an asshole. I just snapped spontaneously one day like you did, and I haven’t been doing a very good job at keeping a lid on myself ever since. I was walking alone on Market street a few years ago and this guy hollered, “I’d like to get between those legs.” Well, having been hit on obnoxiously by half a dozen other creeps that morning and at the end of my rope I shot back, “Speak to me with that fowl mouth of yours one more time and you wont have a god damned thing to PUT between ANYONE’S legs!” It makes me furious that if I’m out without my fella, this is going to happen. Just like you, my experience with snapping back at people is that they laugh and are just amused that they phased me.

  40. One thing I will add about the laughing thing.

    As discussed, a real danger and legitimate concern is that shouting at them is only going to escalate the situation.

    Laughing in such situations is usually for the purpose of defusing the tension. Being laughed at is unpleasant, understandably, but it is preferable to things getting violent.

    Not a defense of these men. Just some further thoughts.

  41. So your issue with men is that they hit on you? Granted, I would agree that those men acted childish, but why should I care if you’re alone enough not to hit on you?

      • Those guys were absolutely NOT hitting on her; they were showing off to each other. Doing that is much of how young men interact with each other; and they were doing it by being assholes to all and sundry.

        If one of them had POLITELY walked up and chatted her up, the situation would have been much different.

        The issue was this:
        There is a line. Don’t cross it, boy.

  42. Those guys deserved what you laid out, and more. Frankly that type would as easily laughed it off it you had whipped out a pistol and fired a warning shot; in that mental state they’re all about looking emotionally invulnerable to their friends.

    They Did Wrong and they were informed of that in No Uncertain Terms. That’s fine…

    But I have also been the guy timidly wittering about trying to ask the girl out. (this was MANY moons gone; you wouldn’t be born for a few years yet). That got me labeled as weird or creepy more times than I care to think about. But here’s the thing: the creepy factor CAME from the fear that they’d unload on me the way you did to those guys.

    The comic included in your post, and MANY short blurbs that intend to handle this issue, are insufficiently clear what they are attacking. In the first panel, his questions are NOT inherently disrespectful (though the last is certainly ill-considered at the least). eventually it becomes clear that he is badgering her and dissing her desire for personal space, but it almost looks like the message is “Don’t even ask that first question; the desire to do so makes you an asshole.”

    I was raised in the years when Andrea Dworkin was in the headlines blasting ALL hetsex as rape, and feminism at the time was pretty much “men are The Enemy!” Feminism has matured quite a bit, and YOU are proof of that. Your anger was justified, and you acted with just enough aggression to make their second approach at the light (which was probably inevitable anyway) more desultory, and their last.

    Those idiots may have LOOKED unaffected (as I said before, their current environment demanded it of them), but they got a clear message: “a woman minding her own business does NOT want some scrub ass performing useless mating displays and disturbing her business.” The odds of any one of them doing that are lessened.

    Bravo–you might have made the streets a tad safer. But don’t conflate your GOOD example with examples which are unclear, or even damaging in other ways.

  43. Wow what pigs :P I usually don’t get that.. I don’t know if that make’s me lucky or unlucky. I was always picked on cause of my built cause I’m 5’8 with broad shoulders/rib cage and wider hips i’m far from the stick figure that is glorified. It’s rare that I do It’s nothing like that more of just staring and smiling hahaha men are more polite up here in alaska! well as long as your not in the big cities!

  44. Very intresting thing here ;)

    I don’t have any examples on me cause I think they don’t think i’m attractive
    (feeling lucky or unlucky here)
    I really don’t understand why they are just doing that and thinkin their getting lucky…
    Mostly I’ll Just ignore them, But if they’re getting closer, i’ll just freeze unfortunatly…

  45. I tend to avoid any kind of conversation like this, if you don’t respond they will keep talking. If you fight back, they laugh it off. If you smiley nicely at them, they call you a whore. the fuck………………..

  46. See, I usually Just take it. I’m annoyed but retaliating could anger some men, and, in my experience, many times they are not alone. I fear their actions if I retaliate. I remember one time, my friend who was “out of it,” and I were walking late at night in queens. A friend was supposed to pick us up at the subway but wasn’t answering her phone. I panicked. From blocks away people were shouting at us, “AY GIRL!” We got stares by every person we passed by. A car pulled over and tried to usher us inside. A group of guys tried to walk up to us, but I took her and started briskly walking to the one apartment-looking thing, next to a bunch of abandoned-looking wear-houses. I was genuinely afraid. I would say that then would not be the best time to fight back. But maybe I’m wrong, perhaps if I just said “FUCK OFF” they’d all back off and say, “well, here’s a lady who can fight for herself.” In the past, one time I threatened to pepper spray these guys when I was going through a creepy dark tunnel. I guess that is a form of standing up for yourself. But generally I just ignore it. I don’t understand what a person is trying to accomplish from, in another circumstance, honking at me in the light of day, kissing the air between us when I looked, and when I looked away, honking again, doing the same thing when I looked again, and then honking even more when I refused to look. What does that accomplish!?

  47. I’ve gotten yelled at a few times, but most of it was a (relatively) tame “Hey baby!” out of a car window as I walked down the street or something like that. But one time I was taking my little brother to the mall to see a movie, and in the parking lot some dude started talking loudly with a friend about stuff he’d like to do to me. I got so mad. SO mad. I could have punched him. If my brother wasn’t there, I probably would have yelled at him. But I didn’t want to anger the guy, especially since my brother was there (and the parking lot was pretty deserted), I wouldn’t want to put him in harms way at all.

    But it just pissed me off that this guy would have the nerve to say this kind of stuff around an 11 year old kid. I was angry partly because this douchebag was being incredibly disrespectful to me, and partly because I was so ashamed that my brother had to hear it.

  48. Something like this has happened to me too. I was walking to the mall and some guys started yelling “Hey cutie!” out of their car to me. I felt scared and terrified. Later, a guy stared at me(ALL of me) as I was walking by. I later vented to a male friend of mine about it who said that I should feel flattered. I don’t think he understood that I felt scared by this, by these random people staring at me or calling out to me from their car window. It really annoyed me when he said that I should feel flattered too.

  49. This happened to me twice the other night. I was alone and lost in the dark while looking for the address of a party I was meant to be attending. As I was walking some tools drove past me and started calling at me, whistling and honking their horn. This made me really angry because they just assumed I would feel privileged to be objectified and be the subject of their attentions. It also caused me massive anxiety on top of that caused by being lost and late, as I am a tiny girl and would have very little chance of defending myself against bastards like that. About half an hour later, and still lost, I ran into a group of guys, who started calling out to me and trying to get me to stop. When I ignored them, they started insulting me.
    I am constantly pissed off by this ‘lads’ attitude that gives them the right to treat women like that, because what they want is clearly more important.
    Grow the fuck up society

  50. i’ve had to deal with lots of little scatterings from time to time, but they were never a became big deal.
    however, one time, I was a FEMDOM club, that yes, fetishes women, but more importantly fetishizes /powerful/ women. And, tho i was completely new to the scene, I was practicing/gaining experience for domination. I knew I was receiving attention and I liked it- that was what i was there for. However, this ASSHOLE, decides that he has some kind of exception because he was also a fellow dom (so why he was at a femdom club, i have no idea). He begins touching me with unwelcomed hugs and waist gropes. Ok, well this was a sex positive club, so thats alright, I politely told him off. He stayed touching, but after some more polite pushing/pulling away from me he eventually let go and then… launched into some bullshit about how he was italian and italians love touching anyone and everyone. Bullshit. (Later on, i observed him but uh he wasn’t “touching everything and everyone” with other females (and male subs) that he interacted with.) And ridiculously, later on he came back to grope a bit more. um yeah. NO.
    I am not impressed with how i reacted, esp considering, like i pointed out, it was a femdom club and that i had every right to be dominating, powerful, and demand apology/submission.

    *This one is significant, cuz of 2 things- its ridiculous that at a FEMDOM club, male (doms) would still have the nerve to harass women. that is just unacceptable on so many levels. 2nd- actually, even when they’re (straight) subs/the bottom in a partner dynamic, men can still harass women in this manner (the amount of times straight male subs have approached me saying- “hey, please tie me up and flog me?”)

  51. Wow, wow, and wow……so most guys really do this? And any of you gals got any vids of these not so random encounters? Just wondering, because the of old old complaint of guys simply staring at ladies because of the way they were dressed. Any every guy wearing wrap around sunglasses are staring at them even when they are not looking directly at them. And the usual comeback was something like: ‘then stop wearing high heels and short skirts’ or ‘just wear a Burka’

  52. I remember a specific time when I was 21 or so (it happened a lot but this is one example) I was walking down the street, wearing old loose fit jeans, a t shirt (not girl t, unisex), my hair in a low ponytail, no makeup. I think I had a backpack with me. I was walking to the library or something. I was waiting on a light to turn so I could cross the street and this car full of guys pulled up near me and starts yelling things. Among the things they said one of them offered me $20. Really? This was a very common occurrence when I was younger. I haven’t had it as much since I had kids. I guess kids are like a-hole kryptonite.

    Another time I was around 16 or 17. I gave a younger, smaller guy a ride home from something we had both gone to. I got to his house and he refused to get out until I gave him a kiss! Really? I wasn’t scared since he was smaller then me. But I was pissed. I told him he had until the end of the song to get out of my car and then I was going back to my apt. He figured I was serious when I started to pull away and he jumped out of the car. I never gave him a ride again.

  53. First of all, I had a women in a military sexual harassment class distill everything quite well.

    She said it’s simple – you use the Golden Rule as a guideline, and treat other women (and men) like you would want both yourself and your friends and relatives to be treated.

    End of discussion.

    That cut that class short.

    Second, I have always been (and still am) an equality feminist, but I take issue with the ideology feminists.

    The equality feminists that I know understand that men and women need to work together to eliminate injustices, prejudice, and to make the world a better place.

    Ideology feminists seem to think that the only way to improve women’s lot in the world is to tear denigrate men and discriminate against them.

    A perfect example is my family court judges mislabeling of “deadbroke” dads as “deadbeat” dads, and her refusal to enforce a father’s access to their children.

    Any thought?

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